Hi everyone,

We're in the process of scheduling some developer time to review the Incursion content, and make adjustments as needed. We've got a stack of feedback from the CSM, and we'll hopefully be blogging about it in the near future.

Thanks,
-Greyscale

Do you guys even listen to what the csm says about incursions? The current csm loves incursions and wants ccp to implement more pve content like it.

This thread is full of tinfoil.

I think Incursions are superior in all ways to L4 missions. They generate content, socialization, and in some cases PvP. They're a great way for corps to form and recruit. And, unlike a L4, they can't be botted into being an endless fountain of isk.

So I'm in favor of Hisec incursions being profitable, as at least humans are profiting from them instead of bots, and they drive social interaction between players rather than being a mindless, boring, awful solo activity. Missions bore the hell out of me and I can't imagine doing them for any length of time. Hell, even Incursions get repetitive, but at least you can chat while you do them.

We're not all in big alliances. And we certainly don't want to get rid of incursions.

Incursions are a great collaborative PvE experience, it brings people together in highsec (which is a good thing), gives some focus points where pvp can happen in lowsec as well as providing some much needed reward boost there, etc. So, no, we don't want to get rid of Incursions, they are a good thing.

The questions that need to be looked at as far as I'm concerned are:
- whether there are enough incursions or not. I believe they go away too fast in highsec, forcing continuous migration which isn't a good thing
- whether the overall rewards are appropriate. I believe the rewards are a tad too high in highsec, and fairly good otherwise, a bit on the low side in 0.0 but 0.0 has other income sources (or should have).
- whether sites are balanced (they're not, vanguards are too easy to do, the other sites are too annoying/long), diversity is good in terms of content, but the overall reward/time could use some harmonization.

If anything, we asked for more similar content, because it generates the kind of behavior (people getting together) and fun experience/gameplay that is beneficial to the game, so stop worrying :p

Now now, don't put words in my mouth... Especially since I don't do endless CTAs to defend my non-existent moon-goo... Do a little bit of research ;-)

If you read my post, instead of criticizing what you think I wrote, I say that I believe the rewards to be a TAD too high. I don't go "cut the rewards in HALF!!!!1!!one". tad...
2nd, I talk about balancing the sites, which means aligning vanguards and others towards a closer gain/time, that means decreasing a tad the vanguards, and improving significantly the others.
Also, you may notice I mention a desire to extend the duration of the sites, meaning that even if the value/hour decreases a tad, you have more content to profit from, instead of having to run every which way to find the next incursion, thereby increasing your revenue/hour.

Just allow some way for players to side with the Sansha against the farmers without CONCORD interference, then the profitability can remain high without throwing rsk vs reward out the window. Failing that just remove Incursions from High Sec altogether.

I have a question. Are you one of those people who complained about raiders getting exclusive access to tier gear so much that Blizzard gave in and gave equal gear to everyone?

At the rate people are doing the incursions in highsec, they do go away too fast. They can farm them for days in lowsec and 0.0, but not so in highsec. Migration is a good thing, but not when people are required to move like ants whose nest is being continuously kicked. Balance...

You mention getting fleets is not easy, I concur, hence why I think incursions need to stay up a bit longer so people have more time to set up, find friends, move there.
Vanguard give good money, and for most normal fleet, that's fine. The issue is when people find ways to blitz them, the reward/time goes way up then. That's the issue I'm talking about. The other sites need to be balanced upwards.

Lowsec sites are good money for the time spent, I don't think they need a buff or nerf at all.
0.0 having "isk print" is both true and not, but that's not the subject of the discussion here. As far as I'm concerned, 0.0 needs more "grunt level" isk sources and less "alliance level" ones, and incursions play into that so I don't advocate changing anything on that front.

No, the changes I'd like are:
- Vanguards to be non-blitzable. If you want to use shiny fleets, do so, they'll provide more safety and most likely efficiency over non-shiny but overall this will lengthen the time it takes to complete them to people who blitz them and get the income/hour to reasonable levels. People who don't blitz them ideally shouldn't see an impact on their hourly income.

- I'd like non-vangard sites to be reevaluated in terms of gain/time. Either by decreasing the time, increasing the rewards or a combination thereof. Variations in terms of difficulty are fine, it's just the payout/time I'd like streamlined.

- I'd like incursions to take longer to reach 100% in highsec, probably by a factor 1.5 to 2, so more casual type of people can participate in incursions instead of seeing them despawn by the time they get on site. This, combined with decent profitability for the other sites means more people can participate.

Also, but not in the "balancing" category per se, I'd like to see more types of incurions, other races than sansha or more sansha content, I'll leave that to the content guys at CCP to decide, but more content that encourages the type of gameplay we've seen here and was previously absent from highsec. Ideally that content would be accompanied by "story" events like we've seen with sansha, in order to get the storyline evolving again and give the RPers some much-needed "fuel".

Sure you can argue that the CSM is representing its constituents, you can tell yourself that they're just jealous, you can convince yourself that they just want to keep hi-sec poor.

And then you can go and look at the PLEX price, and the inflation of mineral values and realise that maybe the endless fountain of isk coming from farming incursions is not the best thing for the Eve economy right now. You can't argue with the numbers.

Is this commentary necessary? You're speaking with a pixel spaceship politician.

true enough ...It does not make sense. However its high sec. so CONCORD "retribution" is expected..
Altho their response time could be a lot higher .. in case of running Incursion .. i mean higher then in 0.5 system...

So the perceived safety is still there but if someone really want to hurt incursion runners they will have an chance..

Just an thought.

Still the "mechancis" beyond Incursion should be changed anyway.. So it wont be farmed but it will be played as it was originally intended.

ok well i haven't had the time to sit and read all 13 pages of this but i want to say a few things.

Of "the CSM Feedback" 80-90% came from me. Most of my feedback was based on extensive conversations with leaders of the public incursion running communities (like BTL) and outreach attempts on public incursion forums, and the feedback was not 0.0 overlords saying 'nerf incursions' cause they are high sec babies or anything like that so get over it.
To be totally honest your favorite overlord to hate (The mittani) sat back and didnt say a word other than stating goons ran them for a while and liked them so you can all relax the conspiracy theories.

The fact is incursions are very profitable, and I stated they should be. The issue specifically with the ISK payouts is that they need to be properly balanced with the other class sites. i doubt im gonna be able to follow this thread closely but if you haev a specific concern regard the CSM and Incursions you can contact me.

No, the changes I'd like are:
- Vanguards to be non-blitzable. If you want to use shiny fleets, do so, they'll provide more safety and most likely efficiency over non-shiny but overall this will lengthen the time it takes to complete them to people who blitz them and get the income/hour to reasonable levels. People who don't blitz them ideally shouldn't see an impact on their hourly income.
- I'd like non-vangard sites to be reevaluated in terms of gain/time. Either by decreasing the time, increasing the rewards or a combination thereof. Variations in terms of difficulty are fine, it's just the payout/time I'd like streamlined.
- I'd like incursions to take longer to reach 100% in highsec, probably by a factor 1.5 to 2, so more casual type of people can participate in incursions instead of seeing them despawn by the time they get on site. This, combined with decent profitability for the other sites means more people can participate.

Also, but not in the "balancing" category per se, I'd like to see more types of incurions, other races than sansha or more sansha content, I'll leave that to the content guys at CCP to decide, but more content that encourages the type of gameplay we've seen here and was previously absent from highsec. Ideally that content would be accompanied by "story" events like we've seen with sansha, in order to get the storyline evolving again and give the RPers some much-needed "fuel".

As far as incursions in low/null are concerned, I don't want any change at all for the time being.

no that would be because the players were completely ********. DPS in incursions = clicking what is broadcasted by the FC, Logi = locking everyone and just mashing reps, FC = follow flowchart and broadcast ****

This is of course for VG sites only, which are coincidentally both the easiest, quickest (maybe mining with prebought ore but **** ore) and best isk/hr sites.

Make effort and risk equal payment again. VG sites are literally doable by small kids without any prev. experience (I made a 10 yo play logi once, I just told him to press the F buttons when yelling came from the speakers until the yelling stopped) and are risk-free (it takes about 10 maels to alpha a logi, jamming don't work with ECCM mods, good luck getting a gank done when there's usually concord present in system already).

Don't start blabbering about the risk of losing a ship due to a drunk logi because even with the most obnoxious group of incompetent jackasses, incursions are a ******* breeze.

Great! So I resub after couple of years to get some incursion action, now CCP decides to nerf it

I don't know if this has already been clarified since my last post, but alot of people need to stop thinking of money as an absolute. Its a commodity, just like minerals, pi or mods. It has no inherent value, tho, only what people place in it. If there is alot of isk per player, that value goes down because you don't value it as much.

This is simple economics, people. We should have all learned this in high school. :/

EDIT: and I doubt anyone has a problem with incursions themselves, just the payout because its devaluing every other form of isk making. The change the payouts to be LP heavy and isk light is the best idea overall.

So the fix for incursions causing inflation due to to much isk pouring in is to up the payouts?

Makes perfect sense.